Wednesday, September 06, 2006

Beyond Bint Jbeil

As I was leaving Beirut I ran into the around the clock procession of dump trucks that are moving Dhahieh to its new seafront location. Once you get past that, you'll start noticing some redecoration courtesy of the Israeli Air Force. Overpasses are out. Not a single overpass remains between Beirut and Saida. Silly Israelis! Any casual observer of Lebanese driving patterns knows that we don't use these things. Why take the long dizzying way when you can just jump the median?

Bridges are a different story; we do need those because we have many many rivers. A river is a continuous flow of water that pumps life into everything in its path. Water is life and we have an abundance of water. I just wanted to rub that in.

After a few detours to find alternative ways to cross the numerous water sources along the way we reached Soor, home of LBC's favorite mufti Sayyed Ali El Amin. Just a piece of advice here, If you're heading South fill up gas before you leave Beirut since gas pumps are an extinct species south of the Litani.

My destination was the border village of Yaroun, my grandfather's hometown and where he spent the first 15 days of Olmert's anger tantrum. Yaroun is one of the heavily damaged villages that didn't get much media coverage, probably because it is beyond Bint Jbeil and Bint Jbeil is more photogenic. Like most houses in Yaroun, my grandpa's is now missing a wall. On the bright side the living room is well ventilated and enjoys an unobstructed view of Jabal Al Jarmaq. So we went to the local "Jihad Construction" office to pick up some cash. Note that "Jihad" is one of the Arabic words that is never translated to English only so that the terror alert levl can remain at orange, just like Madrassa. By the way, Little Jihad cannot go to his Madrassa in Bint Jbeil because Bint Jbeil is, well, more like Bint Jbeil was.

Before you reach Yaroun from Bint Jbeil there is an ant hill on the left between the road and the border. It is known as Maroun El Ras. When I used to see the TV footage of the Maroun El Ras battles, I thought that was just one angle of this strategic base. It turns out that there were no other angles, Maroun El Ras is just what you saw in the camera frame; a couple of houses on what would be rated as a baby stroller hiking trail. You have to see how small the areas in question are to grasp the magnitude of the Israeli military failure. There are no visible Merkava tracks beyond the outskirts of Bint Jbeil. To put it in perspective the distance from there to the border is shorter than the distance from where you are to Starbucks.

On the way back, we stopped for food at th only open restaurant in the area. Two rocket holes adorned the seating area. A couple of mine explosions and stray Israeli jets provided the ambience music. Judging by the clientele present, the waiters will be needing intensive French and Italian courses. Barbecued Merkava was the Plat du Jour.

Tomorrow (Lebanese time, so it might be a few days) I'll go Beyond Beyond Bint Jbeil with a political reading of the war's results.

56 comments:

Hassan said...

'I'll go Beyond Beyond Bint Jbeil with a political reading of the war's results.'

Yalla we look forward to it. More photos!!

What is "Occupation" said...

sounds like quite the israeli failure, i shall request the IDF the next time lebanon attacks to please actually do damage to lebanon, not just scratch it a bit.

but it does make me jealous after all you have all those nice new open views of all that water you dam (WAZZANI SPRINGS) up an keep to yourselves. How quaint. maybe the Litani Dam would be a great target next time.

EDB said...

Finally.
Excellent! I've been sitting here and waiting for your reportage. I now feel inspired to write my own from the past two trips down south.
Tell us-- what nationalities (approximately) were the UN troopers you saw in the south? Did you seem them actually stationed, or just sitting around and eating, like in the good old pre-July war times? Did they look mean or more like those scruffy Israeli reservists who were busy capturing Sayyid Hassan portraits?

Charles Malik said...

And all this time I thought you were from the Bekaa...

You did live there, but you're not from there.

The Bekaa blogosphere just got smaller. I'm feeling very lonely.

Anonymous said...

Really Nice.. Can you please go to Ain Ebel and tell us about the situation there. It is also getting little coverage if none at all except for few clashes that happen here and there.

Jamal said...

Hassan- i was having trouble uploading pictures to blogger, i'll add some more when i get a chance.

occupation- if you ask for it nicely we might send some your way. But you must learn to say please.

EDB-get to it, a lot of people are waiting for your comeback.

Charles- what makes you think i'm purebred, i could be a mutt :o)

What is "Occupation" said...

jamal,

lebanon has tried and succeeded in diverting water as to not reach israel.

With the price of desalinisation dropping ten fold in the next 5 years this hopefully will remove a problem for all the peoples of the middle east, including the gaza which naturally has not enough water to sustain it's self.

water is a big problem, maybe the solution will take another painful dart out of the equation.

jooj said...

Jamal, I am glad you still manage to keep your sense of humour.
looking forward to more updates

Avrum. said...

Jamal,

Next time please keep Hezballa away from Yaroun, otherwise Olmert will take care of the rest of your grandfather's house.

Charles Malik said...

Avrum,

Not cool...


Jamal,

To second Hassan, any pictures of Maroun ar Ras?

Did you see Khiam? According to the news, the Israelis bombed the former prison there.

Anonymous said...

Avrum,

I'm sure some Israeli Prime minister will take a go at Lebanon again, since their urge for destruction and creating problems with their neighbors, keeps Israel from looking at itself in the mirror, and dealing with its internal issues.

Although I doubt it will be Olmert that will be vent out his frustration on Lebanon this time, as he is on his way out, for trying to come out of Sharon's shadow.

Angry Anarchist said...

Thanks for the update. I have been to the south lately, twice, but I haven't gone as far south as Bint Jbeil.

What is "Occupation" said...

I am sure israel will take a "go" again at southern lebanon, after all the kidnapped israelis still never had a red cross visit, we do know there were taken alive (like the last 3 kidnapped soldiers by hezbollah murdered in cold blood) and they have not been returned.

I wonder if the lebanese understand how most of lebanon was spared... consider that a reprive...

now take control of your country (not likely)

return the soldiers unharmed (not likely)

as for urge for destruction, who started this? who rained 4000 missiles down on israel? lebanon got LIMITED destruction, do you have any clue what israel COULD have destroyed?

as for looking in the mirror, israel will in fact deal with it's internal issues, in fact the funny thing is, you speak of sharon's shadow, well sharon lead the WITHDRAWL from gaza and west bank, hezbollah's stunt actually stopped more withdrawls..

so congrats hezbollah, you have stopped and went backwards to peace...

remember let's all learn to bow to the great shia....

Laila said...

Jamal,
Blogger is a headache when you try to upload images. It's moody; sometimes it is nice but sometimes it turns to an ugly evil and refuses to take pictures, and sometimes it uploads but swallows them and doesn't show them on the blog.
A freind of mine has suggested Hello.com. Try it; it is easier to work with. At least for images.
Good luck with the great job. Take care and get back safe.

Laila from Iran

Lirun said...

thank you for the window..

i have a harder time being so cynical about such widespread distruction..

many people in israel who have suffered enormously use humour as well..

i can laugh at other people's jokes but i have no ability to generate my own on this topic..

in any event - you're showing a lot of strength and resilience..

respect

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
hoping my country never feels the need to repeat this horrific exercise

Charles Malik said...

BTW, bar-b-qued Merkava sounds pretty disgusting. But I guess it's one of those things you order on a menu because it's only offered for a limited time, or because you've never had it before and don't want to have it again, but kind of want to try.

Is it even halal?

Chas said...

Occupation,
I can hear the cries of gratitude, faintly, from under the rubble. "Thank-you Israel for your restraint and self control!"

I sincerely hope the soldiers are returned safely and soon.

Peace, Chas

What is "Occupation" said...

chas,

i can dig that, however one must be honest and ask..

did the 4300 rockets and the kidnappings of the soldiers and the using of civilians as shield cause this to happen?

the geneva convention is clear, if you are a combatant and hide among civilians, all damage that occurs is your fault and is a war crime.

The israelis are murdered, typical when a jew is kidnapped by arabs or moslems, from nick berg, daniel perl, the previous 3 soldiers kidnapped by hezbollah

all cold blooded murdered... so i dont expect anything but murder..

as for the rubble and deaths..

44,000 lebanese were killed by lebanese hands during the civil war...

and a hell of alot more buildings were turned to dust.. this between arab brothers, what israel destroyed actually is quite small when compared to that, compared to hama, compared to darfur, compared to iraq & the kurds, iraq and the shia, the current iraq shia conflict, the egyptians vrs the arabians in sudan etc...

so maybe they wont say thanks, but a warning non the less..

stop attacking israel or israel MIGHT have to act like the lebanese....

Kodder said...

woah just had a night out was having fun to the max.
plenty of alcohol and stuff, just to rub in on "occupation"
I will read what he said tomorow and reply to him, its 5 am now and I am damn sleepy.
see you tomorow little guy and prepare yourself for a bukake :).

Chas said...

Occupation,
your arguement clearly demonstrates the moral vacuum a person falls into in seeking to defend actions which are indefensible.
The attempt to rewrite the events of this war and reconstruct, post conflict, the motivations, intentions and aims is widespread and disreputable.
There is only one clear moral position, applicable to both sides .. the people most responsible for where bombs or rockets land and the damage they do, are the people who drop or fire them.
Would you accept the same arguement from Hez? That Israel was somehow responsible for the casualties from their rockets? Of course not! Because the arguement is absurd and repugnant.

I abhor the taking, never mind the execution of hostages, it is a moral position, it does not depend who takes the hostages or why.
I abhor the gulag in Guatanamo and the political prisons of Iran in equeal measure.

Peace, Chas.

What is "Occupation" said...

chas: There is only one clear moral position, applicable to both sides .. the people most responsible for where bombs or rockets land and the damage they do, are the people who drop or fire them.
Would you accept the same arguement from Hez? That Israel was somehow responsible for the casualties from their rockets? Of course not! Because the arguement is absurd and repugnant.

the people who FIRE rockets using human shield according to the world's standards are the guilty people.

israel did notifiy, used the phones and dropped leaflets warning southern lebanon to evacuate, hezbollah did not, and aimed at civilains with rockets designed with ball bearings to maime and kill civilians

hezbollah shot 4300 rockets into israel at civilians on purpose

to equate the two shows a lack of clarity.

but if you must somehow blame israel for bombing areas that hezbollah made into military zones, fine, we disagree, as does the world's actual legal opinions on fighting and using women and children as human shields.

what do you say to the fact they are now rearming those same areas again with rockets to be among civilians to be shot at israelis again?

what do you do to hezboolah strong holds that shoot rockets into israel aimed at civilians? hold hands and chant? sing a song? send an email to the UN or the red cross?

nope it's clear, if you hide among old men, women and kids, use them for cover and shoot rockets at civilians trying to murder as many as a goal, it is NOT the same as bombing where the rockets come from

What is "Occupation" said...

kodder states:
woah just had a night out was having fun to the max.
plenty of alcohol and stuff, just to rub in on "occupation"
I will read what he said tomorow and reply to him, its 5 am now and I am damn sleepy.
see you tomorow little guy and prepare yourself for a bukake :)


is this really your best foot forward? it seems by your comments and the silence of your peers that you are not quite the man you pretend to be. Disgusting sex talk, boozing it up, sounds like you have a problem with self esteen. do you have a AA in lebanon? and you call yourself a lebonese? your friends, by their silence, acknowledge your typicalness of your society.

how sad...

how disgusting..

how, by the silence of your peers, how accepted by your people...

Kodder said...

lets see...
poor little "occupation" is angry again.
After a few days of no appearing on the blog suddenly comes back for more stupid comments.
You were so angry that you didnt win any debate in here (which is futile) that you had to take some rest and dig up new excuses?
anyway best foot forward? lol... I came at 5 am and see your stupid comments, sitting all day long refreshing this section so you reply to anyone who talks other than you like.

now lets see..."disgusting sex talk"... you are the only who is disgusting.
boozing it up,... I thought you were complaining that there is no freedom in the evil bad muslim world, that its so repressive, and now suddenly... alcohol is evil for you.excellent chain of thoughts there "occupation".
Self esteen...interesting new word. so talking about sex and having fun in pubs is a sign of problems with self esteem. Interesting, so most europeans,americans, canadians, south americans have problems with self esteem eh?
tell me what do you guys do for fun? sex is evil, alcohol is evil, having fun is evil, ah smiling is evil too (never saw an israely official smiling), umm so what do you do?... oh yeah. killing arab children that's not evil at all eh?
dude...you are out of excuses, you just repeat yourself daily, we are having fun at your expenses, if you still have any dignity left (of course you don't) you might just go away , maybe sleep for a little while, go have sex with your wife, oh shit I forgot its evil and disgusting.Probably the baseball bat thing made it that way...

wait, no don't leave ,stick around I am having fun.

شهرزاد Shahrazad said...

What is occupation indeed,

"israel did notifiy"
What rock are you living under????

chuck said...

jamal,

interesting post.
i like the way u write,
although i might dissagree with u on some issues or statments u make, but it is good to see some real pics from the war zone, the battle fileds.
my city was dammaged too (in Isreal). most of the people that their houses were bombed left the house miracoulasly a few days before or even 15 min before it was bombed, and those who did stay at their house were merely wounded or suffered from hysteria and shock.
ofcourse there were tragedies as well, people who were in a "safe zone" and were killed by a direct hit, or even 3 guys who were driving a car, ran out of it to hide when they noticed the shelling around them, and got hit directly, and the stories go on...
ofocurse our towns weren't demolished by the rockets like southern lebanon, but we can't realy thank hisballa and nasralla for that, only to god.

keeep the humor going.

What is "Occupation" said...

kodder,

sorry.

you talk about all kinds of abnormal behavior far removed from normal sex and alcohol usage. you describe yourself as a pervert. you speak of rape, facials, fecal material and many other things that are not normal sexual practices.

you have many problems, the least of which is me...

seek professional help, or better yet, dont.

you are what you are. more of an enemy to the arab people than me.

What is "Occupation" said...

شهرزاد Shahrazad said...
What is occupation indeed,

"israel did notifiy"
What rock are you living under????


we saw on the news, the clouds of leaflets falling over lebanon, we heard the lebanese talk about the "stupid" israel calls warning them...

but aside from that, if you live with a rocket in your kitchen, what do you expect? flowers and chocolates?

if you LIVE with a rocket in your gargage, living room, or kitchen, you SHOULD expect to be bombed...

Charles Malik said...

Uhhhh, Jamal.

Did you go on vacation?

Okay, I know you're incredibly busy. I know that I'm being a hypocrite in asking you to blog frequently when I've stopped writing frequently.

Chas said...

Occupation,
And if Hez had dropped leaflets on Haifa? Would you leave your home on their say-so? I know I wouldn't.

The leaflets were an absurdity, it was very obvious that people were in danger, most of those able and willing to leave did so.

I mean quite apart from the obvious facts that the roads were under attack ... that at the same time that leaflets were being dropped saying "leave" others were dropped saying "vehicles will be attacked" ... I mean, it is really not worth continuing this arguement, it is old and tired and goes nowhere. Perhaps there is some more constructive debate we could have? Like how to build peace in the region for instance?

Chas

What is "Occupation" said...

Chas said...
Occupation,
And if Hez had dropped leaflets on Haifa? Would you leave your home on their say-so? I know I wouldn't.

but they did not... they attacked without warning and kidnapped 2 soldiers and started raining missiles down on israel..
hezbollah did not, israel did.. whether israeli would take the warning is not the issue.

chas: The leaflets were an absurdity, it was very obvious that people were in danger, most of those able and willing to leave did so.

no not an absurdity, a requirement to get civilians out of the way, and think of it, 1 MILLION lebanese DID infact evacuate to safety..

chas: quite apart from the obvious facts that the roads were under attack ... that at the same time that leaflets were being dropped saying "leave" others were dropped saying "vehicles will be attacked"

hundreds of sorties of flyiers were dropped BEFORE roads were attacked again, dont try to lump all the different attempts to warn the lebanese to leave in one lump. fact is, the lebanese were warned as a reaction to the rockets and kidnappings these areas would come under attack.

chas:the... I mean, it is really not worth continuing this arguement, it is old and tired and goes nowhere.

except for the fact that hexbollah with iranian money some real, some fake are re arming and re building in civilian areas, and if nothing changes a repeat or worse next time...

chas: Perhaps there is some more constructive debate we could have? Like how to build peace in the region for instance?

we since israel is handing over land to the lebanese government and has lifted the blockade, why not release the kidnapped soldiers as per 1701?

how about hezbollah disarming and allowing the lebanese government take over the military roles in lebanon

if you want shebba farms to be lebanese, get a signed agreement from syria.

how about peace treaty between lebanon and israel? (wont happen for many reasons)

how about this, keep iran from using your country as a launching pad...

Anonymous said...

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Kodder said...

lol at "occupation", all those abnormal sexual stuff that you described were directed towards you little babe.
poor little guy, he can't differentiate between an enjoyable sex act, and a sex act description that is purely made to piss the hell out of you... but anyway israelies have a problem to differentiate alot of things.

Water hole dillers with Katyusha trucks.
Civilians with militants.
Civilian buildings with strongholds.
little babies with fighters.
and the list goes on.

and "occupation" you are the least person capable to define what is "normal" and what is not, since your whole existence is abnormal.
thank you very much :).
oh btw tell your wife that I said Hello, she knows who I am. we always talk together on alt.com

What is "Occupation" said...

Kodder said... all those abnormal sexual stuff that you described were directed towards you little babe.

yes and from you... not me... what you say tells about who you are...


kodder: poor little guy, he can't differentiate between an enjoyable sex act, and a sex act description that is purely made to piss the hell out of you... but anyway israelies have a problem to differentiate alot of things.

it doesnt piss me off to what you make a jackass of yourself, just proves who and what you are...

Kodder: oh btw tell your wife that I said Hello, she knows who I am. we always talk together on alt.com

your mother and father must be so proud.. is this why canada has rejected you for school?

Chas said...

Everyone,
Please try to debate like grown-ups!

Occupation.
I saw real time video from a BBC report of both contradictory leaflets being picked up on the dtreets of Tyre.
but nevermind, the debate is sterile and pointless. You are never going to convince any Lebanese, most non-aligned observers have, like me reached their own conclusions, and the Arab world, well, that is kinda obvious .. so, let it rest. History will judge.
For now, I share your frustration over the soldiers, I would like to see them returned without further delay and without conditions.
Olmert has announced a willingness to dicuss Shebba. I think that is good.
The blockade is being lifted. That is good.
The legitimate gov of Lebanon is regaining control (slowly) and is getting significant international support.
I think Hezbollah will disarm. It is a political process now, so it will take time, it will be frustrating and there will be fudges and compromises. Hard to tolerate I know, but I really believe that Hezbollah's day has gone .. it may, it will be difficult but I do not think they can hold out much longer against the democratization that was accepted by the other factions after the civil war.
And one other thing you are wrong about. There will be a peace treaty .. within 5 years for sure and maybe sooner. I'll bet you two goats.

Peace, Chas

vrai14mars said...

Disarming Hezbollah is a "political process"? More like a financial issue. They need their money for missiles job. Let'say they need their money for obvious influence reasons since they have decided that the Lebanese State is too corrupt to perform its duties vis à vis the Shia community (which for them includes indoctrination as part of education and political allegiance to qualify for social services). They need the influence that only money can buy. At best this "political process" will look like haggling to extract a ransom if they are ever to sever their links with Iran (unlikely). The line between their posing as a "resistance movement" and their actual day job as mercenaries is harder to tell. Frankly it was hard enough before May 2000 when they did everything they could to keep the Israeli army in Lebanon; since their defeat of May 2000 when the Israelis left, only imbeciles or accomplices could find any justification for their weapons and their "fight" for the Syrian Shebaa Farms. One has only to realize what they did with the South instead of letting it bloom (all while pretending that they were needed to support the poor Shia community that everybody had abandoned): Tunnels and missiles! Such is Hizbullah. Call dogs cats if you want but in my book this is terrorism against the Lebanese people in general and the Shia in particular. Political process then? Bullies must be confronted and all other solutions meant to avoid short-term "fitna" will spell long term disaster for the country. So, I wish as you say that "Hizbullah's day has gone", but by this token it should never have been born in the first place since the May 17 Accord gave peace to Lebanon and security to the Shias and it should never have survived their May 2000 nakba. But their business is about keeping the Shias in their fold by spreading among them the fear and mistrust of other Lebanese. Only the Shias can decide whether Hizbullah's day is gone.

www.truemarch14.com

Chas said...

vrai14mars.
I accept you qualification. -political and financial? that would work for me.
If the Shia can feel represented without the strong arm of Hez behind them, or if Hez can transition to a solely political orginization then things could go well. That is the political part of the process. I guess I should have said that Hez's day as a military force has gone.
A lot hangs in the balance, but I think change is in the air.
I am not thinking there is going to be a perfect solution here, just a workable one.
No-one can wish Hezbollah away, they are part of the reality of Lebanon

Peace, Chas

vrai14mars said...

"Change in the air"? You mean to say that you sense that the Shias themselves want this change? How do you reconcile "change" and "Hizbullah as part of the reality of Lebanon" unless Hizbullah morphes into something like New Labour?

Robert said...

Some facts Jamal conveniently ignores ( having his origins in Yaroun- Hizb imposed government)

Israel was attacked in an unprovoked aggression. The aggressor was Hezb’allah. The casus belli which triggered the war on July 12 – after 6 years of constant infiltrations and cross-border violations in full view of the UNIFIL observers whose dubious role is still being questioned today – was the launching of Katyushas across the Israel-Lebanon border at the same time that two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped and a few others were killed.

Everyone recognized that Israel was the attacked party: the G8, the UN, the EU and even Saudi Arabia in their official statement just after July 12 were all unequivocal in identifying Hezbollah as the aggressor.

Fearless said...

A question for you:
How come the Hizballah 'heroes" never fougt the Syrian occupation of Lebanon?

Fearless said...

A question for JAMAL:
How come the Hizballah 'heroes" never fougt the Syrian occupation of Lebanon?

Chas said...

vrai,
".....Hizbullah morphes into something like New Labour? "
Armed groups have "morphed" into political groups before .. it is not impossible. New Labour? well, I dunno about that!
Like I said, there is not going to be an ideal solution here just, maybe a workable one.
Here are the slender threads on which I build a hopeful case.
1) The most important. Hezbollah has had its war. Its achievment in arms will never be surpassed. If it ever again decided to take on Israel it would be annhilated. Israel would not repeat the same mistakes and would show no "restraint" if there were to be another war. I believe the Hez leadership knows this. They have created a legend .. they will never match that feat again.

2) The people displaced during the conflict were mainly Shia .. they were taken in, sheltered and cared for by, I think, all factions of Lebanese society. When Shia villager sought refuge in Christian communities they found it. I never heard one story of them being turned away or mistreated. A testament to the unity and humanity of Lebanese society. People do not forget such things.

So why does Hez need to be armed? Either to fight Israel or to intimadate Lebanese .. and I do not think there is a future for either tactic.

Peace, Chas

vrai14mars said...

There never was. This is the point. The only "future" to this tactic is money and power. Now perhaps you can tell us what can Israeli society do to get rid of this self-perpetuating culture of righteous criminality in which not many eybrows are raised when a whole country is destroyed and, after the cease-fire, the leadership announces that it is still out to get Nasrallah.

Chas said...

Vrai,
man, you ask difficult questions! I don't know is the short answer.
As you probably know I contribute to Lirun's site which is Israeli and pro peace.
But with other Israelis I have frequently encountered the attitude you describe. I was frequently disappointed with the shallowness of the supposed "soul-searching" after the ceasefire.
So my answer is weak, all I can see is to keep blogging, keep searching for the cracks in the facade. There are people out there who are open to rethinking Israel's position .. just not enough of them,
Peace, Chas

What is "Occupation" said...

vrai14mars said... Now perhaps you can tell us what can Israeli society do to get rid of this self-perpetuating culture of righteous criminality in which not many eybrows are raised when a whole country is destroyed and, after the cease-fire, the leadership announces that it is still out to get Nasrallah.

vrai, what whole country was destroyed? lebanon? hardly... selected areas of beirut and areas of southern lebanon were destroyed, 95% of lebanon was untouched. if you want to see what completely destroyed looks like look to the lebanese civil war.

whether you like it or not, israel was selective and held a hugh amount BACk, if you want to see the power of complete destruction, allow hezbollah to rearm (as they are) and drag lebanon into a bigger war,,

Chas said...

Occupation,
again the cries of gratitude from Lebanon are deafening! Thanks so much for only destroying 95% of our country! (I don't know where you get your figures, but no matter).
Vrai, with respect to my post above, see Accupation's post ... QED.
Occ and Vrai,
Consider this:
Israel ha 5 neighbours, if you count the Palestinian areas. It has peace with two of those neighbours. The peace treaties have held and have benefitted both sides. If it had peace with one more neighbour, that would be 3 out of 5. Math is not my stroing point but I think that would be a majority.
Lebanon, inspite of the recent past, is the most promising candidate for peace to be signed. Is that not worth considering? I think such a treaty would finally turn the tide with regard to Israel's place in the middle-east and Arab acceptance thereof. And that would be no small thing.
Occupation, is that not worth a little "out of the box" thinking? Something more than a knee-jerk response? Can you not see a future which is not based on the next "bigger" war? What do you think Israel (Israel, not Leb or anyone else) could do to help encourage such an outcome? Surprise me!

Peace, Chas

vrai14mars said...

Occupation, thank you for sparing 95% of Lebanon, LOL!!!

What is "Occupation" said...

chas,

Israel had a peace treaty with lebanon in 1983

http://www.mideastweb.org/lebanonpeace.htm

but thank syria for the failure.


as for the destruction, speak honestly, 95% of lebanon was not destroy, yes SOME areas were pounded into dust, but speak honestly.

padrino said...

The photos are great. More pics Jamal.

vrai14mars said...

Occupation, I am no professor. I won't attempt to teach you the little I know about economics or ethics but, to be honest since you ask, when you incur destructions for at least 75% of GDP, when forecast "growth" goes from +6% to negative, when investors flee and many Lebanese follow them, when pollution occurs on such a scale (you'll see the increased cancer rates in the coming years), when companies go under and people lose their jobs, when prospects of servicing the huge sovereign debt suddenly become so shaky, when depression becomes the permanent companion of so many people, getting to a reliable percentage of destruction is an elusive task. What do you want really? That we become like Afghanistan? Like 2nd WW Warsaw? 1945 Dresden? Plus, one intangible is that we are no closer to peace and in my book, not peace equals more destruction and death on all sides. If this is what you want for Israel, go ahead. I thought that the Talmud said something like "He who saves one life, saves the world entire." Simple logic tells you what happens to the world when you take one life. In my blog on www.truemarch14.com and you'll see that I am no warmonger. This is the last time I take the time to answer to outrageous posts and you have happily exceeded all limits.

What is "Occupation" said...

vrai14mars said...
Occupation, I am no professor. I won't attempt to teach you the little I know about economics or ethics but, to be honest since you ask, when you incur destructions for at least 75% of GDP...

yes and israel lost all economic production for a month and a mucher higher dollar amount...

vrai: when forecast "growth" goes from +6% to negative

hezbollah did the same to israel 1st.

vrai: when investors flee and many Lebanese follow them

hezbollah did the same to israel 1st. and israelis fleed as well

vrai: when pollution occurs on such a scale (you'll see the increased cancer rates in the coming years)

yes 4300 iranian rockets hitting israel did the same

vrai: , when companies go under and people lose their jobs

yes hezebollah did that also

vrai: , when prospects of servicing the huge sovereign debt suddenly become so shaky,

israel has that issue, but did not have the rich arabs and the eu to fork over billions in grants

vrai: when depression becomes the permanent companion of so many people

Israel understands, since it has been attacked for 60 yrs nonstop

vrai: What do you want really? That we become like Afghanistan? Like 2nd WW Warsaw? 1945 Dresden?

vrai, simple stop letting hezbollah, or the palestinians murder israelis from your land...

vraiL If this is what you want for Israel, go ahead.

israel RESPONDED to hezbollah... your questions should be aimed at them and syria, the shia and iran

vrai: Simple logic tells you what happens to the world when you take one life.

yes, please tell hezbollah to return the 2 kidnapped soldiers asap and to stop attacks... then there will be no need to respond

vrai14mars said...

I basically agree with everything you said but two: (1) the US is more behind Israel than the arabs behind Lebanon and (2), if Hizbullah's "letter" displeased Israel, it should have bombed not the post office and its surroundings but the actual senders, including their Syrian and Iranian bosses. But what Israel did is to try to turn Lebanon into another Gaza. Pity Hizbullah's and Israel's kids who will one day have to learn this in their history books. Well, I pity Israeli kids more than Hizbullah's because the only place where the mix between propaganda and education is more insidious than in Hizbullah's book is North Korea, so they have little to lose and their parents won't know what they have lost. But in 10, 20 years, try to teach a half intelligent Israeli kid about the Holocaust and he'll throw back at you questions about occupation, Gaza and the Lebanon 2006 war. Any talk of "moral superiority" will then be totally bankrupt and you'll have to use North Korean tricks to push it down the throat of your kids. This is your problem, your time bomb ... unless you think a society lives only by its (American-subsidized) technical and economic achievements. So you thought Israel could be a little peace of West in the Middle East, able to live away from the stench of its surroundings? Fat luck my poor friend. Prepare to choke.

Chas said...

Occupation,
Yup ... I really meant a peace treaty between two soveriegn states, entered into freely by both parties .. you know, the kind of traty that actually means something!

So, I repeat:

Occupation, is that not worth a little "out of the box" thinking? Something more than a knee-jerk response? Can you not see a future which is not based on the next "bigger" war? What do you think Israel (Israel, not Leb or anyone else) could do to help encourage such an outcome? Surprise me!

Peace, Chas.

Chas said...

oops, traty = treaty, sorry.

Lirun said...

occupation

dont worry about it..

some people are too angry to consider that there may be another side..

they dont want to talk or listen to you and your views are pushing them deeper into their own preconvictions..

nothing you can say will seem valid to them..

screw the panphlets we dropped before bombing.. we have spent six years warning of what could happen if the rockets dont stop and nothing happened.. lebanon was struggling with its democratic evolution and we copped the crap being thrown over the border with pursed lips so that they could continue to form and a war avoided as HA used us as their stage to show their bretheren just how powerful they were and lebanon watched in apathy.. no one called the security council back then..

but you get to a stage where enough is enough.. not only was the HA shitting on lebanese sovereignty but then they came over to shit on ours.. we realised that our nice friendly warnings were useless jacked up the volume and a lot of people are now suffering.. on both sides..

no one enjoys and rarely does anyone listen to people saying" i told you so" - so why would this change now..

when people are in this state nothing else matters to them..

once the pain subsides hopefully some more focus will be diverted to long term sustainable outcomes..

wishing us all peace and that the atrocities never repeat.. we have all suffered enough..

lirun
telaviv
www.emspeace.blogspot.com
the blame game is a waste of web hosting server space

Lirun said...

and vrai14mars..

(a) our technological achievements are solidly ours..

(b) its israeli wages and taxes and funds and budgets that are covering the billions of shequels of defence of repair that we require.. i know i speak i for many when i say we have worked harder than usual.. sent money food and provided accommodation to people from the north.. we spend a lot of leisure time there now to boost their economy.. we're not waiting for anyone..

(c) we've choked once.. its not going to happen again..

i think i'll avoid this blog.. feels kind of toxic

take care everyone

gmar hatima tova and ramadan kareem where applicable ;)

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