Saturday, July 22, 2006

Angry Olmert Day 11

Beirut is still relatively calm today. Most people think it's because of the American evacuations taking place these days. Whatever the reason for this lull is, I don't expect it to last especially with the lack of any military progress for Olmert's terrorist troops.

Lebanon has been taking a pounding for eleven days, but we still stand tall. Olmert tried to sever our knees, only to see us rise higher. Chopped our hands off and we reached further. Olmert stuck a dagger in our heart, but the heartbeat got stronger.

Yo Olmert, baffled huh? This isn't the Lebanon of 1982. It is not the Lebanon of 2000 either.

In 2006, Lebanon hears through your empty noise. Take out our eyes but you can't blind us.

To Olmert's credit though, he is realizing Lebanon won't break. He is moving to plan B.

If you can't fool the Lebanese, fool yourself. Kill more innocent civilians and tell your people you are finishing off Hezbollah. They'll believe you and hail you as a hero. Isn't that what you wanted in the first place?

Be careful what you wish for though, you might get the same heroic end as your master.

46 comments:

Dr Victorino de la Vega said...

Saudi Arabia’s Pilates Help President Bushmert Destroy Lebanon

After having washed their hands of the daily carnage taking place in Palestine and Iraq, Saudi Arabia’s Pontius Pilates chose to offer a bleeding Lebanon as sacrificial lamb to the people of Israel.

This “new friendship” bringing together Wahhabi Islamist thugs and rightwing Israeli fascists should come as no surprise for those who know the history of the Middle-East.

a h m a d said...

If you can't fool the Lebanese, fool yourself. Kill more innocent civilians and tell your people you are finishing off Hezbollah.
You nailed it... sadly, this is the plan of the IDF, israeli Destructive Forces. :S

the perpetual refugee said...

This is not the Lebanon of 1982. Nor 2000.
It is 2006.

We are united and defiant.

Olmert is a fool if he thinks otherwise.

MaxZurich said...

Finally a blog that openly says: kill us, we're brave, and if you don't we'll kill you :)

FluffResponse said...

"Israel has no choice":
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740949.html

linalone said...

Jamal, nbesit ma khallou khazouk (3amoud ersel) Men charroun bi lebnen, khayfine chaklon n2a3edoun 3ala chi khazou2 mennoun.
Read my newest post on afifa80.blogspot.com . You will love it.

What is "Occupation" said...

stated: Lebanon has been taking a pounding for eleven days, but we still stand tall.

yes i saw the streams of merecedes benz with white flags driving to the north...

stated: Olmert tried to sever our knees, only to see us rise higher. Chopped our hands off and we reached further. Olmert stuck a dagger in our heart, but the heartbeat got stronger.

do you really believe this crap you write? israel has not tried to destroy lebanon, it is destroying hezbollah, if israel wanted to lebanon would cease to exist, you are allowed to stay alive BECAUSE israel chooses, however when this is over, you sunni's will have to embrace your shia pals...

stated :Yo Olmert, baffled huh? This isn't the Lebanon of 1982. It is not the Lebanon of 2000 either.
In 2006, Lebanon hears through your empty noise.

i think you are deluding yourself, just watch your terrorists brothers scurry like rats down their holes...

stated: Take out our eyes but you can't blind us.

you are already blind, israel is taking off your blinders, in time you will see the virus of islamic pukefaces that has infected you

stated: To Olmert's credit though, he is realizing Lebanon won't break. He is moving to plan B.

no, he is moving in to crush the terrorist scum you seem to laud... how sad...

stated: If you can't fool the Lebanese, fool yourself. Kill more innocent civilians and tell your people you are finishing off Hezbollah. They'll believe you and hail you as a hero. Isn't that what you wanted in the first place?

tell me, what of those missiles that hez has shot? what has the LEBANESE attack on Israel gained?

300+ DEAD arabs
1000 wounded arabs
3 billion in roads, bridges, power stations

all because you attacked and invaded israel and kidnapped 2 israelis and murdered 8..

happy?

was it worth the price?

how much will lebanon burn because of lebanese support for murderers?

so stay strong and be brave as your chickenshit country is picked apart and if your brave lebanese solders (the french of the middle east) join the battle, be prepared to live in tents for the next 20 yrs...

eli said...

Jamal and other good people of Lebanon:
as long as Hezbollah launches rockets on Israel from near or within your villages, from near or within mosques - these places will be valid targets for retaliatory bombings.

Innocent Lebanese civilian casualties are a result of bombings aimed to kill H-A, not civilians. Innocent Israeli civilian casualties (yes, we also have innocent civilian casualties) are a result of deliberate bombings by H-A aimed to kill civilians.

So stop whining and start taking respobsibility for Lebanon from the hands of H-A.

What is "Occupation" said...

Angry Hezbollah Day 11

Israel is still relatively calm today, despite hundreds of missiles and rockets (all containing steel ball bearings to tear flesh, not destroy war material, not the same kind of missile). Most people think it's because 500,000 evacuations heading to the south taking place these days. Whatever the reason for this lull is, I don't expect it to last especially with the lack of any military progress for hezbollah's terrorist troops, 9 air raids by hezbollah today, but thank g-d they suck at their aim.

Israel has been taking a pounding for eleven days, but we still stand tall. Hezbollah, syria, palestinian & iran have tried to sever our knees, only to see us rise higher. Chopped our hands off and we reached further. Hezbollah has kidnapped us in violation of the UN and the world condemns them, thus sticking a dagger in their heart, the saudi cleric & egyptians have forbade moslems to support hezbollah, the G8, the vatican, the entire world (except the shia) are condeming the hezbollah


Yo Lebanon, baffled huh? This isn't the Israel of 1982. It is not the Israel of 2000 either.

In 2006, Israel hears through your terrorist, murdering & kidnapping actions. IF YOU ROCKET ISRAEL & KIDNAP AND MURDER HER PEOPLE, YOU WILL PAY A PAINFUL PRICE....

Dont blame Israel bacause of YOUR criminal, illegal actions...

RETURN THE 2 SOLDIERS, DISARM HEZBOLLAH (UN1559) AND TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LAND, OR LOSE IT

Perplexed180 said...

Not all innocent civilians. Quoted from boston.com this morning:

Army chief Halutz said Hezbollah miscalculated if it believed Israel would not respond to aggression. ``The restraint which we showed over the course of years is interpreted . . . among the terrorists as weakness," the army chief said. ``On this count, they made a horrible mistake by assuming that we would persist in holding back and restraining ourselves."
He said that about 100 Hezbollah gunmen have been killed since the offensive began 10 days ago.

That's right, "gunmen".

Dr Victorino de la Vega said...

Yiddish Press Praising Wahhabism!!

“The Forward”, a leading Yiddish-language US newspaper has an interesting article in its latest issue praising “Saudi Arabia’s strong support in the war against Lebanese terrorism” [sic/sick].

Once again, this “new friendship” bringing together bloodthirsty Bin-Ladenites and other Wahhabi Islamic fundamentalist thugs and rightwing Israeli fascists should come as no surprise to those who know the history of the Middle-East, and the profound influence ancient Jewish Sicarism always had on Saudi Arabian culture and civilization.

But I’m sure the Saudi government will eventually meet the retribution it deserves, for, as Winston Churchill famously said:

"They've been given a choice between dishonor and war. They've chosen dishonor and they shall have war."

أمل said...

Innocent people are dying just because flat breast Condi wants to show off her metaphor skills about the region going into labour before giving birth to the so called New ME.

Fuck this world.

What is "Occupation" said...

stated: Innocent people are dying just because flat breast Condi wants to show off her metaphor skills about the region going into labour before giving birth to the so called New ME.

Fuck this world.


How about..... Accept the reality that Israel has a right to be there and defend herself, even to excess.

How about..... Understand that greatest threat to the arab world is herself....

How about.... Learn a trade besides being a victim

How about... Learn that the age of islamic conquest is gone... forever

What is "Occupation" said...

here are some interesting pics

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/183865.php

Ronen said...

I must say this blog is starting to be a bit less interesting. Cheering up the Lebanese and trying to threaten Israel is kind of a bore. Look, even Nasralla is not frightning anyone these days.

As you probably know from the press south of Lebanon is now being evacuated (altough HA are trying to force sove vilagers to stay) and Israel has recruited thousands of reserve soldiers that will be headed north as of sunday morning. This will be a good time for you to think of what has HA led your country to.

enjoy the pic: http://mad.walla.co.il/w/f-400/233145-5.jpg

Perplexed180 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Perplexed180 said...

Yes, interesting pics what is occupation. And, again, it's not a surprise that the world sits by and doesn't stop Israel. It is too bad that innocents have to be caught up in it.

What is "Occupation" said...

perplexed, the world sat by and allowed hezbollah to not dis-arm

the world sat by in 1918 when the arabs slaughtered the jews of hebron

the world sat by during the holocaust, the world sat by after the munich olymics

i do see israel warning the lebanese to move out of specific areas before they attack, i do not see hezbollah or suicide bombers doing the same.

mikealpha said...

"Meanwhile Hezbollah and its allies both in the region and in the West are and will be waging the mother of all propaganda wars. The task assigned to the propagandists is to stop military operations so that Hezbollah survives and fail international interventions so that the Lebanese Government collapses. A war of images, photos, mudding, internet, and media will explode in all directions. Operatives helping Hezbollah, including many with Christian names, will be waging an indiscriminate propaganda offensive against Lebanese, Arab, Western and obviously Israeli figures to spread confusion and psychological collapse in the international community. Objective: Obstruct the implementation of UNSCR 1559, trash the March 14 movement, criticize the Arab Government, and incite for Jihadi violence.".

Perplexed180 said...

What is occupation, I am not disagreeing with you. I think that it is a shame in those events that you mention, when the world didn't intervene, and I think it's a shame that the world is not stopping innocents from being killed in Lebanon. Yes, Israel is warning the civilians to get out of the way, but you have to admit, it's a shame that Lebanon is being destroyed in this manner, especially since there may have been a better way to handle the issue than what is happening. Perhaps Israel feels that they need set an example, so that others will know that this is what could happen to their countries should they think of agression in any form. Obviously this idea has some merit, but, again, it would have been better to have not destroyed as much of Lebanon as has been destroyed. Think of it this way. Israel could have simply said, "no prisoner trade" and done nothing. This would have still set an example, that there is no point in kidnapping, since we won't trade people for people. And then Israel could have worked to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah in different ways, or convert Hezbollah to non-militants. Possibly an expression of support for Hezbollah moving into the political arena, not bullcrap but real support? Possibly an offer of assistance to Hezbollah to move into the political arena? Possibly a show of respect? Possibly an extended hand, offering help to prosper? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a bleeding-heart liberal, but I just wonder where all of this is really going in the ME. Will this type of action REALLY provide any sort of security? Imagine the type of good will it would generate in the Arab world if the Israeli leadership actually extended a hand of support to the Palestinians, and insisted on their prosperity. You know the old saying about flies and honey. Just seems that there is an extreme lack of wisdom in this world.

Black Diamond said...

this is important: dude, i've been trying to send you an email, through your blog, but it doesnt work.
there is no other way for me to contact you but to post a comment, i hope that you actually read those comments, now i really hope you do.
i'm not from Lebanon (RESPECT) but i have a friend from Beirut and he hasnt been online for 10 days now. i'm freaking man... i'm worried. i dont want to think of the worst. how can i find him???
please.

Angry Anarchist said...

Well said Jamal. :)

Olmert's terrorist gangs are in disarray. They claimed they've taken over Maroun al-Ras (they even called it Meron A-Ras ... typical ignorance), then they said they were in control of the Maroun al-Ras AREA (implies something totally different), and now AFP reports that there are clashes in and around Maroun al-Ras. So much for the Israelis taking ONE tiny village!

Maxwell said...

This from counter-punch magazine: "Let's go on a brief excursion into pre-history. I'm talking about June 20, 2006, when Israeli aircraft fired at least one missle at a car in an attempted extrajudicial assassination attempt on a road between Jabalya and Gaza City." OK, Israeli apologists, why is that alright? And I really want an answer, not some crap about two soldiers. A war crime, by the way. And: "Back we go again to June 13,2006. Israeli aircraft fired missiles at a van in another attempted extrajudicial assaination. The successive barrages killed nine innocent Palestinians." See. This is why you are hated. It has nothing to do with being jewish. It is about what you do to people. By the way, many of us weren't too pre-occupied with this until you went nuts on Lebanon. Bad tactical move. Now we are paying more attention.

And today, the NY Times reported that your dark lord cheney/bush vader is sending a package of arms to you. I wonder what it could be. Super-powered bunker buster bombs? Nuclear Bombs? Oh, you have those.

Lately, there have been a lot of articles about how Israel appears unable to acheive anything positive from this. Some are claiming there is no "win" for Israel here.

Listen. I don't even like Hezzbollah. But I thought this was going to be a one-sided slaughter. And it has been. But I'm astounded Israel is looking as impotent as the US in Iraq. War is useless now. This ain't no WWII.

I can't help but notice it.Hezzbollah (or how ever you spell their name)is getting more popular in the region, and the axis of evil (US/Britain/Israel) is getting less popular. What does that tell you guys? It should tell you to be more like the European Union, and less like the US. Although the EU is useless because it can't do anything about the US.

Let the aid through! If you care about human life, just stop bombing and let people live.

By the way, is there going to be anything left of South Lebanon after this? It is starting to look lik ethnic cleansing. Is there a good water source Israel wants to get there? I wouldn't be surprised if this was partly about stealing water.

By the way, just because our politicians are united behind Israel, our people aren't. (US)Other than the crazy Christians that make up Lord vader's base.

Oh, and although I understand why you guys get offended, I can't help but laugh at the comments about Sharon and his feeder. I feel guilty about that, though.

You are being used Israel. (Or is the US being used?) I don't know who is pulling the strings, but I would guess that the US is trying to let Israelis get killed in their war rather than Americans. This is all about Iran, you know. On the other hand, Bush claims that Iraq is a success. May God (whatever god you believe in - ha ha) help us all. Alright, I thought I was going to swear these silly comment things off.

versuspropaganda said...

Jamal. Tell me what Israel supposed to do? Sit back and wait when Hezbollah, comforted in your country, will fulfill its ultimate goals elimination of Israel and kill all Israelis? hezbollah want Israel wiped out form the map and you, if I remember properly, stated that you al hezbollah ,so honestly, what would be your advise to Israelis? You want them dead, they have objections, let us blame them that they are not following your wishes and trying to kill first those who want kill them? What am I missing? It is tragic that civilians are killed, but can you tell me honestly, without propaganda, that Israeli civilians will not be killed by hezbolla in incalculable bigger numbers if Israel will not take actions today. Do not hezboallh hiding arsenal in civilian houses? Do not tell me that they not hiding behind your backs and seems you ado not mind.

akela said...

To Maxwell:
"Hezzbollah (or how ever you spell their name)is getting more popular in the region, and the axis of evil (US/Britain/Israel) is getting less popular."
So what? Israel will never be popular, and it knows it. If you think Israelis value your opinion of them over lives of their civillians, you are a little wrong, my friend.

"By the way, is there going to be anything left of South Lebanon after this? It is starting to look lik ethnic cleansing. " Israel has dropped HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of bombs in last 11 days. If what you say is true, and Israel is "ethnically cleansig" Beirut and lebanon, then why ONLY 300 CIVILIANS ARE DEAD? Trust me, if Israelis wanted to "ethnically cleanse" Beirut, there would be no Beirut now. Hizbullah must be stopped. Unfortunately, it is NOT YOU or YOUR FAMILY being blown up by Katyushas. It is a tragedy for humanity's gene pool.

akela said...

"Yes, Israel is warning the civilians to get out of the way, but you have to admit, it's a shame that Lebanon is being destroyed in this manner"
Hezbullah is a part of Lebanon government, therefore, its actions are actions of the government of Lebanon, de facto. Therefore, it makes no sense to bomb anyone else but Lebanon. These morons should have known better. Nobody touched them for SIX YEARS, DAMN IT!!!! SIX DAMN YEARS!!!
"Israel could have simply said, "no prisoner trade" and done nothing." Yeah, and what about the soldiers that were kidnapped. Let them rot to death? I am sorry, Israelis are not like the monsters who send their children to die wih suicide vests, they actually give a damn about their boys in uniform. Would YOU, PERSONALLY, trade places with those Jewish kids in Hezbollah/Lebanese secret torture-room somewhere?

"And then Israel could have worked to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah in different ways, or convert Hezbollah to non-militants" Really? Enlighten me , what stopped Hezbullah from converting in the past SIX YEARS? These guys know nothing else but hatred to infidels (that means you and me), they know no other trade but war against infidels (that means you and me), they desire nothing else but war against infidels (that means you and me)....And final: nothing brings them admiration and respect more than killing infidels (that means you and me). Think of the fame that every suicide bomber gets. Think about the most popular Muslim man on this planet : Osama bin Laden. Do you really expect them to trade all this for the mundane job of politicians?

akela said...

Last comment was for PERPLEXED180

versuspropaganda said...

to maxwell:
I'M TALKING ABOUT JUNE 20, 2006, WHEN ISRAELI AIRCRAFT FIRED AT LEAST ONE MISSLE AT A CAR IN AN ATTEMPTED EXTRAJUDICIAL ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON A ROAD BETWEEN JABALYA AND GAZA CITY." OK, ISRAELI APOLOGISTS, WHY IS THAT ALRIGHT?

It is not alright , it is tragic, but reasons are, just to get started : suicide bombers and rocket attacks on Israel

THIS IS WHY YOU ARE HATED. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING JEWISH. IT IS ABOUT WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE.

Really? Jews were slaughtered in 1918 and state was attacked in 1948 . They hated because they Jews no matter what they do.

LISTEN. I DON'T EVEN LIKE HEZZBOLLAH. BUT I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A ONE-SIDED SLAUGHTER. AND IT HAS BEEN. BUT I'M ASTOUNDED ISRAEL IS LOOKING AS IMPOTENT AS THE US IN IRAQ. WAR IS USELESS NOW. THIS AIN'T NO WWII.

Israeli solder fighting those who hiding behind the backs of civilians, last time they try to fight army for army ….. you still remember that, I guess. Granted it is very impressive how skillful your terrorist became. It will take more time and more casualties to take them out. Impotent ? let us see

I CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE IT. HEZZBOLLAH (OR HOW EVER YOU SPELL THEIR NAME)IS GETTING MORE POPULAR IN THE REGION, AND THE AXIS OF EVIL (US/BRITAIN/ISRAEL) IS GETTING LESS POPULAR.
be sure,you guys less popular in USA too

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU GUYS? IT SHOULD TELL YOU TO BE MORE LIKE THE EUROPEAN UNION,
Be like EU ? this is what we have to do to be popular? It is not a popularity contest and popularity like that seems to me more as a liability.

Perplexed180 said...

Akela, I understand your position. I just have to ask whether it can be reasonably thought that peace will ever be had in that region through actions such as the current one? I don't want to see kidnapped soldiers tortured and killed either. We agree on this. But, if I might pose a logical question: Does Israel have the soldiers back because of this action, or not? Will Israel have them back? Are they likely to find them alive, or will the people who don't seem to fear death themselves kill them in a heartbeat before seeing Israel rescue them (especially after what has just been done to Lebanon)? Also, do you think the soldiers stand a better or worse chance of being tortured now than they did before this Israeli action? My point is that Israel saying no to a hostage swap, but then doing nothing, provided a greater chance for a better outcome for the kidnapped soldiers than what the current actions provide. And, no other Israeli soldiers would have died. And, Lebanon wouldn't have been destroyed. And, innocent life wouldn't have been put at risk. And, Lebanon would have continued to move toward democracy. Etc, etc.

regevn said...

www.fotolog.com/regevn

Itai Frenkel said...

Perplexed180 shalom,

Your question is somewhat naive. Obviusly you are hinting that Israeli was better off doing a prisoner swap with Nasrala.

Israel did not do a prisoner swap because that would increase Nasrala's POLITICAL power in Lebanon.

Take the palestinian swap for example. The jordanian king said (only once) that they had a plan with Olmert to release palestinian prisoners, so it will look like it was Abbas move, and will increase Abbas POLITICAL power. After the kidnap in Gazza took place, that POLITICAL goal could not be achieved since the release of the prisoners would be attributed to the Hammas.

Regards,
Itai
FrenkelX Blog

Maxwell said...

And there you have it folks. the Israelis have become what they claim to hate most. So far I've heard accussations of being a terrorist sympathizer (odd from people who are terrorizing common Lebanese, an insult to my "gene pool" (what ever that means), and insistent talk about it all being the other side's fault. Well, I am ashamed to be human at this point. What awfil animals we are.

Israel is in violation of countless UN resolutions. Why pick and choose what resolutions will be enforced? Israel should pay reparations for the destruction it has caused, and the death of innocents. But I guess we won't get from a state that has such a double standrd as Israel.

Disgusting. Any sympathy I might had for Israel's plight is gone. And more people are becoming disgusted every day. And you wouldn't be able to do with the cover the Texas villiage idot and his wild west posse. Or his enablers in congress.

The British have said they've seen enough. Let's hope they can actually do something about it.

This goes beyond war crimes.

al said...

to maxwell:
ISRAEL IS IN VIOLATION OF COUNTLESS UN RESOLUTIONS. WHY PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT RESOLUTIONS WILL BE ENFORCED? ISRAEL SHOULD PAY REPARATIONS FOR THE DESTRUCTION IT HAS CAUSED, AND THE DEATH OF INNOCENTS. BUT I GUESS WE WON'T GET FROM A STATE THAT HAS SUCH A DOUBLE STANDRD AS ISRAEL.


Simple answerer , because they do not accept THE VERY FIRST RESOLUTION that created stated of Israel. Look, let us talk without emotions, I neither pro Israel nor against Lebanon. What I am trying to understand what id your view guys on how Israel suppose to survive surrounding of countries and organizations who do not recognize it right exist? What in your view Israel suppose to do? All you blame Israel and but none of view said what is your solution for Israel . It seems like all you agree that this state is does not have right to exist and if it is true what kind of standard is that? Israel not fighting Jordan or Egypt because they at least do not declaring a goal to destroy Israel. Why do not recognize Israel and do not leave in piece? You are looking for piece only as for time to regroup and to attack again.
So it is not hauls versus doves it is hawks versus vultures. What am I missing? Where I am wrong?

versuspropaganda said...

MY POINT IS THAT ISRAEL SAYING NO TO A HOSTAGE SWAP, BUT THEN DOING NOTHING, PROVIDED A GREATER CHANCE FOR A BETTER OUTCOME FOR THE KIDNAPPED SOLDIERS THAN WHAT THE CURRENT ACTIONS PROVIDE.

FYI when hezb took the IDF troops, the first prisoner they asked for was SAMIR KUNTAR. You remember who is him? The man who earned Hezbollah's admiration by using his rifle stock to crush the skull of a 4 year old girl. This what kind of exchange they were looking for this is what kind of freedom fighters they are . Accidental deaths of kids during bombing campaign of aggressors who invaded your territory is tragic thing. It is tragic but it s accidental and not intentional. Killing in cold blood Jewish girls because she was Jewish is different, and it is made him hero among those whose interests you are defending so vigorously. Lebanese civilians are killed because of military retaliation on unprovoked aggression, Jewish civilians are killed because they Jewish and they supposed to be killed no matter what.

akela said...

preplexed180, good questions!
Let me address them one-by-one.

"I just have to ask whether it can be reasonably thought that peace will ever be had in that region through actions such as the current one?"
Why is it Israel actions you are questioning? The Hezbullah started this, not Israel!!!Their actions are to blame!!!Israel was out of picture for SIX YEARS!!!
Peace will never be possible in the region until current generation of vehemently fanatic and anti-semitic arabs dies off. Israel and Jewish people were hated, are hated, and will be hated because they are JEWS. Therefore, current actions of Israel are of no consequence to Israel. Israelis will be hated anyways. I mean, first they were occupying Gaza and Lebanon, and arabs hated Israel. Then Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon, and arabs STILL hate Israel. No matter what Israel does, it is hated. Then perhaps if it is feared too, it will be left alone?

“Does Israel have the soldiers back because of this action, or not? Will Israel have them back? Are they likely to find them alive, or will the people who don't seem to fear death themselves kill them in a heartbeat before seeing Israel rescue them (especially after what has just been done to Lebanon)?”
How are we to know that these Israeli soldiers were not dead at the time of capture? Maybe Hezbullah captured dead bodies, as it did in 2004? ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3444231.stm )

“Also, do you think the soldiers stand a better or worse chance of being tortured now than they did before this Israeli action? My point is that Israel saying no to a hostage swap, but then doing nothing, provided a greater chance for a better outcome for the kidnapped soldiers than what the current actions provide.”
Perhaps, they are at a greater risk of being tortured or killed now. IF they are alive in the first place! But Israeli soldiers are also at a much lower risk of being kidnapped in future. Hezbullah, or anyone else, will know that kidnapping a soldier will not result in negotiations, but in most severe consequences. The goal is to prevent FUTURE KIDNAPPINGS, make them useless and counter-productive. For the very same reason all western nations adopt the same policy of never to negotioate with hostage-takers, in order to remove the very motive for hostage-taking.

“And, no other Israeli soldiers would have died.”
What about Israeli civilians killed by katyushas? You have no sympathy for them?
As to other Israeli soldiers who have died: theid death is a horrible tragedy, but it was not a result of Israeli action. Their death was result of Hezbullah's (that means, Lebanon's) aggression against Israel. Hezbullah's actions were clearly an aggression that could not be possibly ignored. Can you imagine Germany kidnapping two French soldiers and not being punished for that? I would like to hear YOU tell french president that HE SHOULD PROTEST AND DO NOTHING ELSE to bring his guys home!
Let me also remind you, that it was Jacques Chirac ho said in January 2006 that if any country would support a terror group attacking France, then France would use nuclear weapons against that country. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4627862.stm ) If France can threaten use of the most horrible weapon, then why can't Israel merely bomb Lebanon using conventional bombs?

“And, Lebanon wouldn't have been destroyed. And, innocent life wouldn't have been put at risk. And, Lebanon would have continued to move toward democracy. Etc, etc. ”
What about Israeli civillians who have to live under daily dose of 100 Katyushas? They seem to be strangely absent from you concerned message!
This is 100 precent self - defense! If Mexico started shooting Katyushas into Los Angeles, do you think Mexico would still exist the day after?
About destruction of Lebanon: same way that we, Allies in WW2 (USA, Britain, Russia) had to destroy Germany to get it into German heads that Nazism is wrong, Israelis will destroy Lebanon to get it into Lebanese heads that Hezbullah and anti-semititsm is bad for their health. That is the only language fanatics of any kind - Nazis, Comunists, Islamo-Fascists - understand. Is it possible for fanatical ideological movement to be transformed peacefully? History says, NO!
Did you ever see a footage of Hezbullah soldiers in the news? Then if you did, you might have seen the clip in which you see Hezbullah marching in the street, then lining up in files, and GIVING NAZI SALUTE!!!! These people are modern-day SS! I wonder if the yell "Heil Nasrallah" too!

akela said...

to maxwell:

“the Israelis have become what they claim to hate most.”
Really, what was the last time Israelis celebrated murdering Lebanese children? What about dancing in the streets of Gaza after September 11th? As I said before, Israelis dropped HUNDREDS of bombs. If Israel adopted terrorist tactics, every single bomb they drop would kill HUNDREDS of Lebanese. The very fact, that trying to kill ”brave and courageous” Hezbollah who hide behind women and children, has so far resulted in only 300 Lebanese deaths is a MIRACLE made possible only by enormous Israeli resolve to minimize collateral damage. Israelis have to defend themselves. That is their right. If Hezbollah really wanted these 300 Lebanese civillians to live, they would not kidnap soldiers and launch Katyushas at Israeli cities. Why do such a thing when Israel is out of Lebanon for good?

“So far I've heard accussations of being a terrorist sympathizer (odd from people who are terrorizing common Lebanese, an insult to my "gene pool" (what ever that means), and insistent talk about it all being the other side's fault.”
Simple logic:
Hezbullah is a aprt of Lebanese government. It de facto represents the government of Lebanon, because it is a part of it. Hezbollah is unprovoked. It DECIDES on its own to CROSS the UN recognized border of a SOVEREIGN state. I repeat for especially slow: the border to sovereign state was crossed without any provokation from that state. Israel gave not a single reason to be attacked for SIX YEARS!!!!
Then, soldiers of peaceful, sovereign state are attacked, and kidnapped. Hezbullah says nothing about their fate - they might be dead as far as we know. Simultaneously, Hezbullah launches a dozen of Katyushas accross the border!!!!.
Lets imagine that we are talking about Germany and France. If German terrorist group doing all that to France, French would launch a nuclear missile at Germany in that case, as Shirac promised!!! Why can't Israelis do FAR , FAR less to protect themselves?????? ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4627862.stm ).
There was not a single excuse for Hezbullah. it IS ALL Hezbullah's fault, and since Hezbullah is a part of Lebanon government, this all is fault of Lebanon
Lebanese government had an OBLIGATION to extrminate Hezbullah, to disarm them. They did not even lift a finger. Yeah, sure, tongue in cheek "we are too weak" talk. Is lebanese army an army at all? In best case scenario, they are sorry cowards hiding behind their moms. Worst case scenario, they were helping Hezbullah. They deserve what they get.

And as far as ME terrorizing lebanese: it is not ME terrorizing lebanese, it is HEZBULLAH terrorizing every one. Can't you see tha Hezbullah are the Lebanese version of NAZI PARTY? You are no different from Germans who cheered on Hitler as he herded Russian POWs, Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Gays, Lesbians and insase into Auschwitz. only in this case, Hezbullah kills Israelis-Arab kids playing in the street
SHAME ON YOU!

akela said...

to maxwell

Al has an excellent point I must reinforce:
"Israel is in violation of countless UN resolutions. Why pick and choose what resolutions will be enforced? "
Every arab country is in blatant violation of the UN resolution #181, creating the state of Israel. No arab country recognizes right of Israel to exist. You must recognize Israel's right to exist, cease supporting terrorists targeting civillians for no military advantage, and then, MAYBE, we can have peace. Until then, your misery, and Lebanon's misery, and Israeli misery is the fact of life. Arabs' vilation of UN Resolution 181 is the cause, not Israelis.

Perplexed180 said...

Akela, I completely understand your points, and in some ways appreciate Israel's deterrent use of force to prevent future thought of agression by any state, and would probably be inclined to respond similarly if I were in the area and were frustrated. I again would suggest that there are going to be troubles for a long time to come. I would ask you if you think that it doesn't matter who is right and wrong, in that both sides believe in their point of view, and believe that they are justified in their actions. I would submit that what is required for peace is for one side to take the high road, and what better side to do it than the one that has dominion over the other? Here's what I would do if I were in charge of Israel: I would decide that the Palestinians were going to have a state and prosper. I would set aside funds to rebuild their state, and I wouldn't care if Hamas or Hezbollah was raining bombs down on me as I did the work, killing construction workers, I would push on with the work. And the work would have no strings attached. I would do it because I was showing love for my brother. And, I would bet that there would be no bombs if Israel did this, and I would bet that the soldiers would be returned, and there would be peace. I would also suggest that simply pulling out of gaza is not enough. Israel has to be advocates for the Palestinians in this world. Israel will find peace through love, not bombs. Again, I'm not saying that there isn't some logic in showing other nations not to mess with Israel. And I would suggest that there is wisdom in showing other nations that Israel is a benefit to the Arabs in the area. Also, the Palestinian issue is the flashpoint issue in the area. Solve that issue, and I believe that the other issues with the Arabs will melt away.

Perplexed180 said...

I would also continue the above thought by suggesting that George Bush needs to come to the same realization. Imagine if George Bush would spend the same money that he has spent on the war in Iraq helping poor muslims in the world. Imagine if Bush became advocates for Arabs. I don't suggest that Israel given over to destruction, but if Israel were advocating for the Arabs, and the US were advocating for the Arabs, one might argue that the Arabs would want both in the region, and not be looking to expel them.

akela said...

perplexed180
I am not interested in explaining to you complete wackiness of your every idea. Please answer this, main, fundamental question :

how in hell are you supposed to live in peace with someone who truly , fanatically believes you must die? How do you live with a neighbor country that categorically denies your right to EXIST?


Lookup UN Resolution 181, and read how ALL ARAB STATES VIOLENTLY OPPOSE IT.

How are you supposed to be understanding of their supporting terrorists, killing your wife and children in cold blood? How are you to forgive the men who dance in streets when your four-year-old daughter had her skull smahsed with a Kalashnikov rifle? Do you know about Samir Kuntar (Quntar), the terrorist who ACTUALLY DID THAT to an Israeli girl? Do you know He IS ONE OF THOSE TERRORISTS THAT HEZBOLLAH WANTS TO FREE?


“I would ask you if you think that it doesn't matter who is right and wrong, in that both sides believe in their point of view, and believe that they are justified in their actions. “
Both Nazis and Allies believed in their cause. Are you to suggest Nazis were justified in their actions, such as Auschwitz????

“I would submit that what is required for peace is for one side to take the high road, and what better side to do it than the one that has dominion over the other? “
Israelis were attacked, even more , they were attacked by an entity which proclaims its goal wiping Israel off the map of the world. By “taking high road”, do you mean all Jews should sumit themselves and their families to Arab swords to be slaughtered? Thank you for suggestion. I think Israelis will pass.
Today it is one soldier kidnapped. Tomorrow, it is ten. Today it is 100 rockets. Week later it will be 1000. It is grossly naive to believe that anything who is hateful enough to drag its country into an unnecessary , unprovoked war, will appreciate high road approach.

“I wouldn't care if Hamas or Hezbollah was raining bombs down on me as I did the work, killing construction workers, I would push on with the work. “ ARE YOU INSANE? HOW ABOUT IF YOU WERE A CONSTRUCTION WORKER?? You have a death wish?

Perplexed180 said...

Akela, I would suggest that it seems that you are intoxicated with hate, and having a difficult time being objective. I was speaking to you concerning how to _change_ the militant Arab's attitude toward Israel, no matter what the current attitude is. You are simply re-stating the current state of affairs, and I don't disagree with you on that point. Who says that the militant Arab's attitude toward Israel can't be _changed_? As for the hypothetical construction worker helping Palestine rebuild while bombs are falling around him, you need to ask if it's not better to be helping others while putting your life on the line, than to be hurting/killing others while putting your life on the line. Example: Israeli soldiers are asked to put their life on the line during hurting (or killing) the enemy, and you would probably not consider this to be "INSANE". But, putting one's life on the line while helping Palestine build and prosper would be "INSANE" according to you? The real issue is this IMO: assuming that bombs would hypothetically fall in both cases (falling both on the soldier at war in Palestine/Lebanon, or falling on the construction worker helping rebuild Palestine/Lebanon), which one of these jobs would be guaranteeing a more peaceful future for Israel? I would suggest that helping Arabs would guarantee peace, whereas hurting will do the opposite. So, if you were going to put your life on the line for _something_, wouldn't you rather put it on the line for future peace? Of course, the above argument is hypothetical, since there probably _wouldn't_ be bombs falling on a force that made it the goal to prosper Palestine :).

versuspropaganda said...

Proplex, could you please explain me why anybody ahs to fight for Arabs? I respect Arabs and have nothing against them., but there are other struggling nations in the world. Why do not fight for Tibet or Sudan or Rwanda? Why Arabs? because they are killing us to? To pacify them? I am sick and tired to here about Arab street and that we have to win their hearts and minds. Let them win MY heart and mind first, and killing me is not way of weaning my heart it what my mind says me. What am I missing . And I agree with you about akela, let him curb you’re his hate it not helping anybody

akela said...

perplexed180

"I was speaking to you concerning how to _change_ the militant Arab's attitude toward Israel, no matter what the current attitude is."
Why do I have to care about what Arabs think? Did we care about what Hitler and his Nazi thugs thought? Why do we have to care about what Nasrallah and his Hezbollah thugs think?

"The real issue is this IMO: assuming that bombs would hypothetically fall in both cases (falling both on the soldier at war in Palestine/Lebanon, or falling on the construction worker helping rebuild Palestine/Lebanon), which one of these jobs would be guaranteeing a more peaceful future for Israel?"
Why Israeli civillians (construction workers ARE civillians) have to die from Palestinian/Lebanese terrorist acts?

Since the day of its creation Israel knew not a single day of peace. It is the only country right of which to exist is still violently opposed by its neightbors. Why do you want Israeli civillians to die? Is terror justified in your view? Then, perhaps, your view justifies Auschwitz and Jim Crow as well?

And by the way, maybe I am angry....but I guess since you do not like my hate, whatever the cause, the Arab hate against Israel is inexcusable as well, whatever the cause?

Perplexed180 said...

Why do I have to care about what Arabs think? Did we care about what Hitler and his Nazi thugs thought? Why do we have to care about what Nasrallah and his Hezbollah thugs
I think that you need care because militant Arabs are doing what they are doing because they perceive that their lands are being stolen/conquered/controlled by the West, and they are feeling humiliated. Now, you may not completely agree with their assessment of the situation, but with regard to making peace it is not important that you absolutely agree, only that you try to understand how you might feel in a similar situation. I would ask you if you ever considered that the militant Arabs could come to a point where they would embrace Israel instead of hating it? Not only the militants, but all Arabs? Have you ever considered that this could happen if Israel first advocated for the prosperity of poor Arabs?
Why Israeli civillians (construction workers ARE civillians) have to die from Palestinian/Lebanese terrorist acts?
I was making an analogy. I was trying to make the point that I would rather risk my life in the advancement of peace, than to risk it in war. I don't believe that this would really happen, I was just making a point.
Since the day of its creation Israel knew not a single day of peace.
Why is this a foregone conclusion? Why can't there be peace between Arabs and Israel? I will respectfully disagree that this peace couldn't happen.
It is the only country right of which to exist is still violently opposed by its neightbors. Why do you want Israeli civillians to die?
I don't want them to die. I want them to live without any threat whatsoever of harm.
Is terror justified in your view?
No, it's not justified.
Then, perhaps, your view justifies Auschwitz and Jim Crow as well?
I respectfully disagree with the analogy that you continually make that compares the militant Arabs to Hitler. I would ask you if you actually believe that analogy to be accurate? They make the same analogy concerning Israel (calling Israel Nazis), and I don't agree with that either. I don't believe that Hitler's name should be cheaply used in this manner, because if anyone can be called "Hitler", the magnitude of the evil that Hitler represented is diminished.
And by the way, maybe I am angry....but I guess since you do not like my hate, whatever the cause, the Arab hate against Israel is inexcusable as well, whatever the cause?
I understand your reasons for anger, and even share some of your frustration. I understand why frustration might lead to forceful actions against Arabs, and I also believe that there is another way. I also disagree with Arab actions toward Israel, and would offer the same advice to them concerning peace. I think that there is a better chance for Israel advancing peace than for Arabs to initiate it. Why? Because Israel is stronger and has the opportunity and capability to prosper the Palestinians.

akela said...

"I would ask you if you ever considered that the militant Arabs could come to a point where they would embrace Israel instead of hating it?"
Arab terrorists (militant, is the washi-wishy speak for terrorist) are modern-day Nazis. The every-day sermons In Gaza call all proper Muslims to "kill all Jews."
Watch this video, if you do not believe me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrJ3NH26skg

There is no difference from Nazis, just different country and language. There is NO justification for this hate, EVEN if there IS excuse. Arab thinking is another attempt to make an excuse. If you want to make excuses, then why don't you make excuses for Hitler? Read about Samir Kuntar. Make an excuse for his crushing 4-year-old girl's head with Kalashnikov, just becuase she was Jewish.

If that is not racist and inhuman for you, I am done talking with you.

And by the way, I use "Hitler" so much, because the evil fo terrorism is not less, it is EXACTLY the magnitude of Hitler. When will Nasrallah become as bad in your mind as Hitler? We have to wait until he kills 6 millions too?

"I was trying to make the point that I would rather risk my life in the advancement of peace, than to risk it in war."
That means, you would rather die peacefully protesting Hitler rather than take up arms and charge on Normandy beaches?
Why don't you go ahead and go to Israel and actually "die for peace". Why aren't you there now, "dying for peace" now? Why is it someone else has to "die", while you sit safely at home?

You might say, "Why aren't YOU fighting this war?" Fair answer: I am against crime. You are against crime. That does not mean, that I or you are cops. Same, as if I am against fires, it does not mean that I have to be a fireman. I am against terror, and I support the guys who fight this fight with every fiber of my soul. If my country will call upon me to fight, I will be the first one with the M-16 in my hands, make no doubt about that. I would like to respectfully note, I have my doubts that you will do the same.

al said...

to proplex:
I THINK THAT YOU NEED CARE BECAUSE MILITANT ARABS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE THEY PERCEIVE THAT THEIR LANDS ARE BEING STOLEN/CONQUERED/CONTROLLED BY THE WEST, AND THEY ARE FEELING HUMILIATED.

So let them adjust their minds to reality instead of indulge them in these illusions
First of all it is not rue. No land was stolen from them unless you do not consider UN resolution created state of Israel steeling of the land . If it is so i am proplexed ,how such a peacemaker like yourself can be anti UN in the same time?
Second of all, if it is even would be true , (for argument sake)just rememebr that, Germany was humiliated indeed by reparations after WW1 and Germans in German Sudets were indeed oppressed. They had reasons to be angry. Does it justify 3rd Reich? I guess you are confusing justification and reason. Charles Manson had his reasoning for what he did and he was angry too, does it mean that his actions were justified?
Third , what conquered/controlled by the West lands are we talking about? Could you be more precise please?
THEY ARE FEELING HUMILIATED. Why should I care about their feelings anyway? Do they care about mine? Do not you think it must be mutual.
I am humiliated by 9/11 . Who did it? Arabs! Does it mean i have to be angry?
You think you will be nice with them and they will change their mind,and they will be peaceful? I would say that cartoon riots, killing of Theo van Gogh, Paris riots and other events in Europe might be a sign that after they will be done with Israel Europe will be next.
US protected Muslims in Europe Bosnia and Albania, in Afghanistan against soviets ect. did they appreciated it? 9/11 was a loud “ thank you” .

Huge difference between what Israel does and what Arab terrorist are doing that Israel does not deny anybodies right to exist and they do. Israel killing civilians( and it is wrong and tragic) as apart of a war and they do on daily basis. For Israel dead civilians is result of HEZ hiding itself among civilians for them civilians is a desirable target.
I WOULD ASK YOU IF YOU EVER CONSIDERED THAT THE MILITANT ARABS COULD COME TO A POINT WHERE THEY WOULD EMBRACE ISRAEL INSTEAD OF HATING IT?
Yes after they will be militarily defeated
HAVE YOU EVER CONSIDERED THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN IF ISRAEL FIRST ADVOCATED FOR THE PROSPERITY OF POOR ARABS?
Why are we guessing it happening today already Egypt and Jordan are recognized Israel and they leave in peace with no problems. Why other countries would not do the same? If you are really pro-peace why you do not put all your energy to convince poor Arabs to recognize UN and Israel and stop terrorism? I would really like to know your answer.